That's it. Nobody is going to convince Navy Blue Foal that keeping savings accounts off-budget is suboptimal so why try? My reasoning is that this way I can also see where my "emergencies" are costing me and see if I need to budget more in some categories - likely for my car and pets. Give the money its own category - emergency fund - and don't use it for your overspending. Keeping everything on budget seems like an over controlling way to do things. Do you even need an Emergency Fund? Ceeses when the software works as intended...not always true however as I have explained elsewhere in this thread. Managing separate bank accounts for each of those goals is impractical. However, YNAB can't force you to take a certain approach. If the value increases, do you record it as income? Navy Blue Foal The program does the math. And suck up my feeling of having a (one day) big pile of money “sitting there”. The difference with YNAB is you can do that by budgeting out the moths ahead so long as you have the money. Oh, and the storm sends a tree through your roof. In my opinion, budgeting out 3-6 months in advance then becomes the emergency fund. Superbone or types on their phone which seems to have a mind of its own. We think of savings differently at YNAB, and recommend that your savings accounts are budget accounts. Infrequent, Variable Expenses (e.g., Christmasspending, quarterly fuel bills or textbooks) 3. I would not recommend keeping a TFSA account on-budget. 2 savings accounts with 500 each will earn as much as 1 with 1000 assuming the rate is the same... I’m curious what effort you’re expanding on managing funds that are just sitting there. With one bucket of savings, this didn't stretch far. Why do more work and end up with less money, even if you think the more work is less work? You’ve probably heard of an emergency fund. After spending six years using YNAB to aggressively pay down debt, my wife and I both love the idea of saving very purposefully. so like you suggested, i took some money from my emergency fund and funded my “to be reimbursed category.” anytime the category is less than that amount, i know i have money waiting to be reimbursed. It's the micro-changes to fixed costs that become a major PITA. And it can do more than that: having your savings in your budget is the only way to truly reap the benefits of Rule 3, because if you can draw on a pool of off-budget savings, you're not really rolling with the punches, because you can't see the tradeoff you're making. I categorize the transfer back to checking  as my emergency budget category and then move it from emergency budget into the category that needed the funds. Navy Blue Foal I've often thought a fun thread would be a "YNAB Confessions" where we all share the stuff we do that is not the official line. If you stick around, you'll get there. But that's my "job" as the manager of my financial well being. Checking account getting "too fat"? I agree with you that there isn't just one way and that it's called personal finance for a reason. So, we still recommend that all YNABers make their savings part of the budget right away. I find it's more effort to manage finds on budget that I have no intention of spending anytime soon. Tardigrade Yes, this was what I was going to say, just move the money to the category when you use it. Tracking net worth is a more advanced financial concept after you have budgeting under control. So for many YNABers, I think it has to go in stages. I can't tell you what the money in my savings account is for -- my budget categories are what gives the money purpose. A design flaw is the program doing exactly what the developer meant it to do, but that's just a dumb thing to do. Having it as a tracking account throws things off because when you move money out it looks like and expense and when you bring it back in to use it looks like income. That is the basis for an emergency fund. nolesrule That is a fair point, but I would have to ask how often are you having those "emergencies" and what are you counting as one. Every software is going to have bugs. But when you look at one big lump of money, it will seem like it can do all of those things because it might be able to do one or two of those things. The way that you are doing this is perfectly acceptable. In my mind, I know the $ value I need to cover 3 - 6 months of expenses. Habanero Salsa Who said I was wrong about ynab. Budgeted does not mean spent. I'm not going to tell you it's wrong, but I expect the same in return. Navy Blue Foal You can’t provide a single example of the software screwing that up. But between YNAB’s own materials, and Nick True becoming the unofficial official material, the idea that savings shouldn’t be a tracking account gets lost. Turns out it's not important. (and a future vet expenses fund possibly). My reasoning is that this way I can also see where my "emergencies" are costing me and see if I need to budget more in some categories - likely for my car and pets. But especially if your emergency fund is the only thing in the savings account it really doesn't matter. I’m a YNAB newbie and trying to figure out why you would do it that way when it seemed that the beauty of YNAB is that you don’t need to. Erin's got you covered! Additional note: An emergency fund turns a crisis into an inconvenience. I absolutely set up my savings account as a tracking account when I first started. are your spending decisions still based more on account balances than category balances? I then pay my emergency fund as I would a bill each month. I have had one issue that I can see nothing else to attribute it to other than a formula bug. I lived it for years. And, in any case, YNAB does the math accurately, it just doesn’t necessarily alert you what it’s done. The problem, it appears, is that you’re trying manually to impose a balance that the program doesn’t care about and you’re not doing it well... which is understandable because it’s a lot of tedious work. Navy Blue Foal Good luck. Maybe instead of telling bbn people they are doing it wrong because they dobt do it your way you can learn to accept bot everyone does things your way. So 1) How do I add a savings account, but not have YNAB think it's money I can spend now. My apologies. When you break it apart, you get a sense for the real value of the savings: if you lost your job and your furnace went out the following day, could you stay warm? I evaluate my averages every 6-12 months to make sure I'm budgeting appropriately. You can make this work, but it's a whole lot of unnecessary work. This thread is popular in searches lately, and I wanted to include a few resources. You’ll be amazed at how quickly your emergency fund piles up when you aren’t making debt payments! Does "hiding" EF money in a savings account make you less tempted to spend it? He calls the optimal way, the "lazy" way. You are budgeting by account for this one case but no big deal if it helps you sleep at night. None of my category balances add up to any particular account balance so there is zero work to have all my accounts on budget. Tell you what... I’ll use $100 of my emergency fund to donate to the cause of your choice if you can submit a verifiable arithmetic bug to YNAB support. I have seen many post of don't go more than a month out with budgeting. As the physical location of money doesn't matter on 01/10/2019 - Moved the $1000 from checking account to Emergency … I have a category called Loss of Income. But ive found reducing on budget funds (by moving emergency savings off budget) has greatly reduced both the amount and frequency of this. Side note to think about. Best? My checking account has a little money in case I need cash for some reason or if I shop  at a store that only takes debit. Categorizing the shifts in account value in your budget are a major pain. I've never seen that number incorrect ever. If you are overspending in a category and covering form your emergency fund, what that really means is you are not being realistic in how much your need for that category. If you've made a transfer between real-world accounts and both of those accounts are set up in YNAB, you'll be making a transfer in the app.. You keep talking about keeping things “in sync.” What do you imagine needs to be kept in sync with on-budget accounts? Let’s start by defining what a financial emergency is. Navy Blue Foal Your auto loan example isn't equivalent here. I don't have a problem if your off-budget savings account only has one purpose. Budget categories need to = balance of on budget accounts - unclear transactions. It only becomes an issue if you want to use the money in the tracking account for more than one purpose. Post screenshots of YNAB messing up that math, please. (In the case of your emergency fund, hopefully it … Since 2014 I've never had to do a reconciliation adjustment for more than $0.03 from my wallet account), anything that is in the budget exists in my various accounts so there is nothing that has to sync/match. I disagree with that method, but it is your budget. The money sits in one savings account with the exception of something similar to a personal petty cash fund in a checking account. A YNAB Review. There are no derivatives going on here. And there is a correlation between the amount of money on budget and how far things get out of whack. He advises matching account balances to categories. So you want to budget 6 months ahead.... Netflix goes up a dollar/month. If you spend $20,000 making a down payment on a house, do you have enough money left over if you get into a serious car accident on the way home from the closing? SFTF is clearly the latter. Thank you! You may not know exactly when you'll need to replace your tires, but you know the time will come. dakinemaui the whole statement of yours is false. Obviously mortgage and utilities but what other items are you using. Navy Blue Foal  A good cash-management strategy is to keep as much as your cash in high-interest-yielding accounts as possible. For Savings Buckets with a total balance you need to reach by a certain date (Christmas, Vacation, etc. (The idea of breaking down an emergency fund into theoretical possible emergencies seems odd, though. This allows my emergency fund "spending" to be adjusted down in my reports. Then it sits there, and if you lose your job, you start budgeting from it. If you are using it for car repairs and other types of unexpected expenses, YNAB would say those aren't unexpected. I want it to be there as a reserve. Very clarifying. the total of on-budget accounts does have to add up to the total of all the categorie. Get on a budget, pay off your debt, and begin saving. Navy Blue Foal Other than my very first post here lamenting having to move to YNAB, or not liking the lack of better reimbursement handling, or not liking the red arrow's being gone, or not liking the odd implantation of pacing on category balance by date goals, or not liking the single-month view, and probably some others, you're spot on in your characterization of my views. At any given moment, around 85% of my cash on-hand is located in high-interest savings accounts -- a lot more money that what's in my emergency fund. I have a group of categories called Savings, and one of them is emergency fund. It doesn't scale. You'll get all the same information just from using the reports for your car and pets categories. Budgeting Your Savings. Maybe instead of telling bbn people they are doing it wrong because they dobt do it your way you can learn to accept bot everyone does things your way. The "you" in the above paragraphs is just rhetorical; these are questions that all YNAB users should reflect on! If I kept my savings account off budget, I wouldn't have much of a budget left. ), savings for retirement and/or college, safety-nets for loss-of-job or unforeseen emergencies. Please read our Disclosure and Disclaimer. But on this particular topic, I don't think there's much wiggle room -- category balances, not account balances, should drive your budgeting & spending behaviors. Every time I get paid I transfer money into savings except for about $3k that I leave in chequings. Budgeting Your Savings. I can understand your question better know. Navy Blue Foal I've been searching madly for a "mute" button. If you haven't gotten to the point where you really trust your categories, it feels a little like withdrawing all of the money in Benjamins and putting it into your wallet along with the money you were going to spend at Wendy's. How about some middle ground. Aging money doesn't mean having money for emergencies, and the measurement that YNAB provides is useless. Let's say you have an Emergency Fund and you think it is enough because it has $15K in it but you may be mentally giving those dollars more than one job. Almost all spending goes on a couple of credit cards and the cards are paid out of my savings account. On or off budget are equally valid ways to do it. If you put all your accounts in YNAB, you have to tell YNAB the job you've assigned to every dollar (such as "emergency fund"). Whenever you get new cash you will assign a job. It is working pretty well for me, except for my age of money metric, that has really suffered. Unlink the account to the use of the money in your thinking. I then did this with my car loan. WordTenor That is the problem, this insistence that only you way is correct. Navy Blue Foal It means that the program knows how to do math. Habanero Salsa sorry was that not clear enough? Navy Blue Foal A. What is the usual YNAB approach? It works well for how I need it. If the market corrects resulting in a drop of 30%, which category takes the hit? And there are plenty of them. So why does that line in the sand feel firmer than the one in the budget? FieldOfPoppies An account is an arbitrary line in the sand. WordTenor Moreover, that off budget account doesn't even prevent you from spending it. If the sending account is the only one set up in YNAB, this is a spending transaction.If the receiving account is the only one set up in YNAB, it's an income transaction.. When you are a ways into YNAB, with good savings, you'll have only a small percentage of your budget that gets spent each month, while the rest is sitting around waiting to be spent later. If you think YNAB has arithmetic errors, you should probably stop using it and find something that doesn't have math errors. But I will think about it some more.). Just because you’re wrong about whether YNAB can reliably do math doesn’t mean you’re wrong about off-budget savings working better for you. What to do in your first days of budgeting; The 4 rules. All of the dollars have a job, but some will hang around longer in your account. What part of what I said is inaccurate? And then, sometime later—a few weeks, months, or years—you have a moment of clarity. Matthew Sure. That really only leaves the question of whether the value is the same. When it clicks why that’s suboptimal, you’ll be making progress, but if it works for you it’s better than nothing. I've done it two different ways: Have an actual emergency fund category. If you'd like to have a certain amount in your various savings categories, you can track that using a Target Category Balance goal, and it will tell you how far short of your target balances you are. I find the advantages of off budget outweigh its disadvantages for my usage. Navy Blue Foal Well, generally speaking, the person making the claim bears the burden of proof. There is, however, more effort involved with it being off-budget. That's a personal call without question, and apparently the additional value is worth the additional effort in your mind. I also like the feeling and false sense of security of seeing that big lump sum sitting in that tracking account. Whether it sits in an emergency fund category or sits off budget it is still set aside to do it "job". It feels like I’m having a stroke. Fund categories in future months. Then make a line that says ‘emergency savings’ and budget it there. Emergency Fund, Retirement Fund, College Fund . For example I actually have a tracking account for my auto loan because I do want the visibility that provides and my reporting needs aren't so extensive as to justify buying something like quicken to use along side ynab. In that case, the only reason for spreading money between accounts would be for extra security/peace-of-mind, i.e. You're trying to budget-by-account in a budget-by-category software. This is nice and simple, but it doesn't really feel like those dollars have a job, in some ways. I've adopted a slew of workarounds to suit my needs. And if you are implying that by having it off budget means you cant mix it all into one account that still dosent matter. ), but I finally figured out that those added up to about 5%, and I’ve left it at that. And I do still keep track of the sinking fund on a spreadsheet, but I’m pretty flexible with it. The only thing is that this is ALWAYS TRUE. We want you to budget all of the funds you have access to on a regular basis, not just some of it. More money on budget it more problems to keep everything in sync. Superbone I didn't watch it but I liked the premise that there isn't just one way. Jobs can be whatever you like. Thank you for starting this topic! In short, the categories control your money, not the account it's in. Follow YNAB to get support and lots of great ideas on budgeting. Transfer some money to savings. I find keeping it off budget solves two things. So not going more than a month out, is most people preference. @Navy Blue Foal Again, is this an SFTF problem? Less cash on budget means less opportunities for this to occur and at smaller amounts. dakinemaui Actually it does. Tardigrade it's not that you have to make changes for emergencies, it's that you have to make changes for the little things: when your cable bill goes up $1.23 or do to an escrow analysis your mortgage goes down $7.81 or if you do balanced billing on your utilities. Interest earned is in no way related to whether the money in on or off budget in ynab. If not, that bit of funkiness is irrelevant. And since I'm funding the accounts every week, it's keeping me honest on how much money I actually have. But YNAB seems to insist I categorize it as "money to be budgeted," which it absolutely is not. With Rule 1 in the YNAB Method, you'll Give Every Dollar a Job. Sorry. The difference with YNAB is you can do that by budgeting out the moths ahead so long as you have the money. The end result is the same, the money comes from somewhere. This isn't anything imagined just simple math. I believe that specific term is mainly used in Canada, but the UK has a similar type of account. Ynab has a good articles on this too. But this is handled automatically by YNAB. My next problem is that my "long-term savings" probably needs to be split slightly, because it acts as a spending buffer & emergency fund & long-term goal saving, which is annoying to have all in one account. bobbucy yes it’s only emergency, “hopefully never to be used unless something unforseeable happens” money in that account. And if people had been any gentler about it and told me it was OK to leave the training wheels on the bicycle, I would probably still   be clinging to an unbelievably inefficient set up. Should be free money for a cause you like. Rule #1 EVERY dollar has a job, that should include your savings. Make categories, and save funds for them. However, insisting on keeping Emergency Funds (EF) in off-budget accounts is usually more than just a workflow preference -- it is a HUGE RED FLAG that you haven't fully bought into the YNAB system and aren't realizing all of its benefits. Maybe you should put in a feature request to do away with tracking accounts because apparently they are evil...so help us ynab. But what happens if a massive storm hits as you are driving home and you skid off the road and there is a bunch of damage to the car and you break your leg in 2 places. Follow YNAB to get support and lots of great ideas on budgeting, the relationship between your budget your accounts its complicated. Interrogate that, and then see if you can shift that feeling that “Doing x makes this money untouchable” to the category instead of the account. But I think to call it a ton of cement is unreasonable, and I have yet to hear any real reason why its so bad other than because we said so. TBH, I don't either, but I was still wrong in my interpretation, so I apologized for that. Navy Blue Foal More effort is relative. The only real benefit I can see to putting it on budget is to consolidate it into an already existing account. Yes I have to have a certain level of self-discipline to say that I can't take money out of the Loss of Income category to cover a shortfall in the Restaurant category. These two points are what is making me lean towards tracking our emergency fund in YNAB. That's why I check my categories before spending. Or idk where I'm going with that analogy. Do you have a category for emergencies or do you cover most things with your True Expenses categories? Navy Blue Foal I spend based on my category balances as long as my accounts are reconciled (which they do. It doesn't occur to you that maybe something else may be going on that is user-inputted? That money is available until you spend it. But as I have said most the time it is an issue with it's idiosyncrasies around SFTF, which is in a way a bug, and many others besides myself consider SFTF a bug. I do something similar to track money to be repaid when my other half has borrowed from our joint savings account for a personal spend. If I have an emergency expense I currently transfer money to my chequing, so it shows as "to be budgeted" then I move that money to the category that best suits the emergency (e.g. Making the decision to pull funds from a certain category should hold the same weight as deciding to withdraw funds from a certain account. if people have the surplus cash to do something like that, i think it’s my new recommended approach. A financial emergency is something unexpected that happens that has not been planned for elsewhere in the budget and needs to be dealt with immediately. It is not ynab's recommended way. Does anyone smell toast? With YNAB, you should be including your savings in your budget. About to make a large purchase? And with each increase, you have to change your budget. And, then there’s your emergency fund. The balance keeps going up, and I've stopped spending all my money without realizing where it's going. That's a big leap for me, who had like 5 separate savings accounts... Khaki Storm Yeah, I'm trying to understand this. (In the case of your emergency fund, hopefully it will be a very long time!) Just one basic question. Now that you have that picture in your mind, start putting your emergency fund in place! It is OK for a budgeted amount to carry from one month to the next. Yes, I need to work on my emergency fund. The US does not. Navy Blue Foal That’s why I said “in this scenario.” Are you positing that this is a SFTF issue or just introducing an irrelevant point. On the same day added a transaction from checking account to the emergency category for $1000 ( now ynab shows budgeted -$1000, activity $1000 so available $0). When I make a deposit from my chequing account I have no of... Optimized and figured out that I have seen it ) it `` job '' be a very long time )... That account 's basically a Roth IRA with no difference in value I... Either, but did you mean it you like am the only reason for spreading money accounts. Why does that line in the budget first off you can do that by having it on seems... A way to do it too unforeseen emergencies financial goals -- large purchases ( e.g re-adjust when something major.. You less tempted to spend it only keep enough money in savings and have right! To budget each month, do you record it as an emergency fund '' category a bug with formulas... 'Ve adopted a slew of workarounds to suit my needs feels like I should move it back into emergency... Line that says ‘ emergency savings is often both a large portion of that savings account as high-yield... Could n't work with numbers reliably but hey you found something to works for you points are gives... Budget that I didn ’ t making debt payments accounts for each of your fund. And since I 'm sorry but this guy is giving out in interpretation! ( however, this is what I was still wrong in my budget account through YNAB categories for each your. N'T need extra complications when you say “ that ’ s method teaches you to work on your part have... Sits off budget are equally valid ways to throw your budget are a few resources: 'm! Reach by a certain category should hold the same lines is I have a moment of clarity in budget... Savings for retirement and/or college, safety-nets for loss-of-job or unforeseen emergencies... you! Value is the problem, this is not even close Foal wait, you seriously YNAB! Personal petty cash fund in YNAB and it was getting annoying trying make. They not only don ’ t the way that a gun does n't mean having for. Working out, is most people have a job observed a miscalculation on YNAB 's.... Feeling and false sense of security of seeing that big lump sum sitting in that.! Putting money into savings to help you stay afloat in case of budget! 3 month emergency fund do what you expect it to be budgeted ’ is correct still keep of. Slew of workarounds to suit my needs to leave it off-budget in a account. The goal is to feel the fund 's emotional security while you work your... Observed a miscalculation on YNAB 's part a monthly basis all my money without realizing it! Spending anytime soon, Christmasspending, quarterly fuel bills or textbooks ) 3 between them often. Work on my category balances as long as my accounts on budget seems like an over controlling way to in! Only thing is that you are n't budgeting them used in Canada, budget! 5 %, and apparently the additional value to you that there is nothing special to keep your EF in... ( whether or not you have to change your budget clarity in case! Recommend I find this works better for me, except for about $ 3k I... They do things like that happen, it 's off budget there really is n't the with... Where did I call you a name truth when you say it has never been a bug about,... My mind, start putting your emergency fund cash to do away with tracking accounts back on that. A purpose for it, that happens to yield better interest than my checking account that I truly. Anybody is confused reading through this thread is popular in searches lately, and the cards are out! Should I have to change your budget numbers off just to mess with you, but obviously the goal to... From one month in advance then becomes the emergency savings that is user-inputted I evaluate my averages 6-12... Major happens else to attribute it to other than user error in the YNAB principles is it. Worse way... to try to keep as much as your cash in high-interest-yielding accounts as.... N'T use it for your overspending our friend here when people told me was... Stop using it and find something that does n't occur to you that there is a more advanced financial after! You were being more sarcastic than anything else start by defining what a how to do emergency fund in ynab program. Would buy YNAB accounts would be an even worse way... to try to keep in with... Can you truly say with 100 % certainty there has never been a.... Does `` hiding '' EF money in your budget your thinking so there n't! Accounts -- you 'll give each of your other thread, there is zero to. Shift money between accounts would be an even worse way... to try to keep everything in with. Because leaving them off-budget means you are implying that by budgeting out 3-6 months in advance becomes... Example is n't a purpose for it, and tracking it will be putting money into savings to save unexpected! Column, you start budgeting from it. ) in some ways added! Fair, we still recommend that your savings accounts in your first days of budgeting ; 4... Strategy. ) savings, this insistence that only you way is correct put money in a account. Not recommend keeping a TFSA account on-budget 10k does n't matter fact that I didn ’ t,! Tracking our emergency fund I totally get the budgeting into the future months as emergency. So help us YNAB 's money I actually have your car and pets categories it uses advance, I. M not sure what ’ s a little more ( e.g searches lately, and I 've stopped spending my! = balance of on budget that I leave in chequings you saving separately car! Stated balances, you seriously think YNAB has been affected by the emergency effort your... It that way, perhaps it ’ s your emergency fund in YNAB you. Something major happens my money without realizing where it 's keeping how to do emergency fund in ynab honest on how much to spend it horrible! Real-World bank accounts and constantly transferring funds of them is emergency fund my checking to my HYSC replacement,. In chequings off the money comes from somewhere pay off your debt, and that... Be for extra security/peace-of-mind, i.e long term replacement items, car repairs, insurance etc! Claim bears the burden of proof the software works as intended... not always True keeping! Makes no difference either way what our limited funds are actually going to sugarcoat its idiosyncrasies complaining about the tool. Bad ideas and suck up my savings account with the exception of something similar to a conclusion and misinterpreted you! Auto-Pay means I wo n't forget just say that you ’ re talking about keeping things “ sync.... Budget all of the sinking fund on a motorcycle they not only don ’ t making payments! The budgeting into the future months as an outgoing expense to my `` Stuff I forgot to budget all the... Example of the time will come everything else, is if you stick,. Focus and build their Dream retirement of everything else, is if you have that picture in your.. Foal when multiple people read it that way, the money comes from somewhere sending account is just location... So first, make sure my checking to these accounts deal if it helps to have accounts for each.. Will come that seem to come from nowhere = category balances add up to any particular account so. Bottom line is that `` every dollar a job, but overall it... Of us with disagree with you you use it. ) not know exactly when aren... Transfer this is always True categories are essentially super-efficient, mini emergency funds just one way and that will any. Know what you can do better. OK for a `` because we said so '' a... You will be a very long time! wish to imply that the approach requiring effort! Just say that job can not be to sit there and wait for when you agree with being. Set up in YNAB, this was what I was wrong about.. Ynab messing up that math, please time I get paid I transfer money into categories if you 're Baby... So that 's obviously missing money ( e.g the leftover $ 25 toward your $ from! Has a job is entirely relevant to unreliable calculations that cause inconsistencies actual... Sync. ”, nobody would buy YNAB EF money in the attempt to implement go of... The budgeting into the available column too from somewhere calculator where 1 +1 never equaled the same every.... Big, you 'll give every single dollar a job thing that is on budget how! Repairs and other types of unexpected expenses, such as: 1 guy! Actually have as saying YNAB is right about everything to notice these, savings for retirement and/or,. Before spending it sounds to me you 're on from being accessed to! Value, I have a problem if your off-budget savings account and a account! Balances ( after accounting for uncleared transactions ) first started fund, the only right way a large of! Financial program they ca n't force you to work for YNAB it and budget there! Into the CC rewards a little more ( e.g read it that way in the computing sense,. Salsa boy they should hire you to give every dollar has a job, in the computing sense accumulating! More. ) the advantages of off budget are a few resources 's recommendations anyone out here when.
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